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| macsforme | blast007: oof... okay, thanks for the update | 14:04 |
|---|---|---|
| blast007 | I'm kinda still leaning towards having a *new* server list for 2.5+ on a different URL that *would* be dual-stack. | 14:05 |
| blast007 | and then my.bzflag.org can stick with v4 only. | 14:05 |
| macsforme | to be realistic, IMHO 2.5 is unlikely to ever happen in it's current form... we could do another 2.99-era selective backport, then transition to more of a rolling release cycle, ditch the counter-productive stable versus unstable development paradigm, and also ditch the 15-year (okay, 12 at this point) static protocol versions | 14:20 |
| macsforme | also ditch the traditional Linux package managers (that have been making protocol updates difficult) in favor of snap/flatpack/etc... probably name it "BZFlag X" like all the cool kids ;-P | 14:24 |
| Juest | so, rolling release of bzflag? | 14:27 |
| blast007 | there was already a BZFlag X :) | 14:36 |
| blast007 | and a BZFlag XL, and a BZFlag Zero | 14:36 |
| blast007 | BZFlag X had a ST+CL+SW flag | 14:36 |
| macsforme | darn, the cool names are all gone... in that case, give up, we're finished | 14:37 |
| blast007 | lol | 14:37 |
| Juest | what are those versions of bzf? | 14:37 |
| blast007 | Juest: really old stuff | 14:38 |
| macsforme | Juest: I think that will work better... at least get away from doing major refactoring and other huge projects in an unstable branch (at the cost of significant man hours) and then never release, which we've done twice now | 14:38 |
| blast007 | X was back in 1.7 or 1.8 days. XL was a modified client by myself that was in 1.10 and 2.0 days. Zero was a modified client/server by JeffM back in the day as well. | 14:38 |
| Juest | I see | 14:38 |
| blast007 | Zero had a half jump backwards button, IIRC, and possibly strafing | 14:39 |
| macsforme | actually, I stand corrected... the cool kids would just name it "BZFlag" and start versioning all over again as if the first series never existed | 14:39 |
| blast007 | BZ Gen-Z 0.0.1a | 14:40 |
| Juest | heh | 14:40 |
| blast007 | I do want to review the changes in 2.5. I have that document that grouped the changesets together. | 14:42 |
| blast007 | Juest and myself found some pretty glaring playability issues in 2.5. Right now, if you get killed by SR, you can't respawn. And GM locks don't play the sound. And you can't right click to identify someone. And there was one other one too.. | 14:43 |
| blast007 | Also, jitter seems higher, sometimes, on 2.5. Like, we were sometimes seeing 50 to 80 ms jitter when on 2.4 it was like 2 to 5 | 14:44 |
| Juest | dont remember | 14:44 |
| Juest | yeah | 14:44 |
| Juest | i had a higher jitter than normal on a local server in 2.5 | 14:45 |
| Juest | i hope we can get 64 bits bzflag going | 14:45 |
| Juest | 32 bits os support is dropped in windows 11 | 14:45 |
| blast007 | 32-bit software still works though | 14:46 |
| Juest | fair | 14:46 |
| Juest | still would be useful to benefit from 64 bits | 14:46 |
| blast007 | unless you're on an ARM version of Windows.. then it might only translate 64-bit x86 | 14:46 |
| Juest | most users run 64 | 14:46 |
| blast007 | dude, we still have at least 2 people running XP :) | 14:46 |
| Juest | oh okay | 14:47 |
| Juest | how about macos arm? | 14:47 |
| blast007 | to be fair, they can't run anything newer than 2.4.2 | 14:47 |
| blast007 | we have apple silicon builds | 14:47 |
| Juest | why not arm for windows too | 14:48 |
| blast007 | because nobody has ARM Windows :P | 14:48 |
| Juest | heh | 14:49 |
| blast007 | it might become more viable with some of the newer chips they're working on, but it wasn't a great experience from what I've read about | 14:49 |
| Juest | hmmm | 14:50 |
| Juest | oh about 2.5 | 14:50 |
| Juest | we didnt even test different settings | 14:50 |
| blast007 | yeah, we were just on FFA decks | 14:50 |
| Juest | something like apoc settings minus the custom flags | 14:50 |
| blast007 | I should run some other game modes too | 14:51 |
| Juest | or even rabbit hunt | 14:51 |
| Juest | yeah, host a clone of the other servers of yours on 2.5 | 14:51 |
| Juest | well, only two of them are there | 14:52 |
| Juest | you could do missile warfare as well | 14:53 |
| Juest | ohh you put up more servers | 14:53 |
| blast007 | added MW2.3 with no-tk mode too | 14:56 |
| Juest | i found a issue with the radar on metropolis | 14:57 |
| Juest | depending on your angle, the underground paths flicker on the radar | 14:58 |
| Juest | and show up weird | 14:58 |
| blast007 | I feel that's on 2.4 as well | 14:58 |
| Juest | ah hm | 14:58 |
| blast007 | what radar mode are you using? | 14:58 |
| Juest | i use fast sorted | 14:58 |
| Juest | it flickers on any height | 15:01 |
| Juest | only when your angle changes it flickers | 15:02 |
| Juest | is changing* | 15:02 |
| blast007 | I put Metropolis up in 2.4 as well if you want to compare | 15:03 |
| blast007 | you could try using Enhanced instead of Fast | 15:03 |
| Juest | what are the differences, i never understood | 15:04 |
| blast007 | I'm not entirely sure myself | 15:05 |
| Juest | no probs in enhanced but i cant see the buildings when im on the ground | 15:06 |
| blast007 | maybe it would work better in 64-bit mode | 15:08 |
| * blast007 ducks | 15:08 | |
| blast007 | probably just how the geometry is built on that map. It's probably pieces put together, so it shows up with seams in the Fast mode. | 15:08 |
| Juest | huh | 15:11 |
| Juest | rain doesnt work on 2.5 or its not visible | 15:11 |
| Juest | but i see it on 2.4 | 15:11 |
| Juest | the sewers effect | 15:11 |
| blast007 | run /diff on both and see if the rain variables are even set | 15:12 |
| Juest | i also im seeing that on fast sorted i cant see the sewer entrance points | 15:13 |
| Juest | but i can see it on enhanced | 15:13 |
| Juest | depending on the height | 15:13 |
| Juest | the rain variables are set | 15:15 |
| Juest | but i cant see any rain in 2.5 | 15:15 |
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| Juest | also, is it a bug that im a hunter and not the rabbit in 2.5? | 15:15 |
| blast007 | I think you're the hunter until a second player joins | 15:21 |
| blast007 | if you connect a second client does it work? | 15:21 |
| Juest | i was the rabbit when i joined before | 15:21 |
| Juest | just this time i am a hunter instead | 15:22 |
| blast007 | hmm | 15:22 |
| Juest | now it gave me the rabbit | 15:22 |
| blast007 | yay randomness | 15:22 |
| Juest | oh so its supposed to be random? | 15:22 |
| Juest | how can i verify its not a bug but actually randomness? | 15:24 |
| Juest | what's the difference between open ffa and ffa? | 15:29 |
| Juest | is that a 2.5/2.6 feature? | 15:29 |
| macsforme | open FFA you can shoot players of any color (including your own) IIRC... similar to if everyone was rogue | 15:31 |
| Juest | ah | 15:32 |
| macsforme | blast007: I was hoping for another 2.4 release soon... do you think having IPv6 included in that is viable or no? IPv6 sounds like it has dependencies on other things that may not happen anytime soon | 15:41 |
| macsforme | I'd like to get the joystick improvements, Xcode project fixes, and SDL-related fixes out there | 15:43 |
| blast007 | no, it would not be possible | 15:43 |
| blast007 | (IPv6 in 2.4, that is) | 15:43 |
| macsforme | k | 15:44 |
| blast007 | pretty sure it requires protocol changes, but if not, at the very least it requires changes to both the client *and* the server for handling v6 addresses | 15:44 |
| blast007 | network protocol changes* | 15:44 |
| blast007 | Juest: no, it's not supposed to be random | 15:44 |
| Juest | so, is its a bug, why it did happen lol | 15:45 |
| blast007 | Juest: I was just being lika "yay... bugs that occur at random" | 15:45 |
| Juest | ah hehe | 15:45 |
| *** FastLizard4 is back | 15:52 | |
| macsforme | in that case, I would be curious whether we could build a consensus for basing the next major release/protocol break on a fork of 2.4 | 15:58 |
| macsforme | we could merge in IPv6 at that point, along with others like GL 2.0, maybe merge in my embedded fork, implement Mac app signing/notarization, etc., and backport select features from 2.5 (premake build system, GLM, and whatever else we can manage without jeopardizing stability) | 16:05 |
| blast007 | I still don't like premake | 16:07 |
| blast007 | barely anything else uses it | 16:07 |
| blast007 | CMake has a lot more support, including in most of our dependencies | 16:07 |
| macsforme | eh, can't disagree with you having preferences, but my understanding is that premake is widely used, including by major corporate developers (Blizzard, etc.) | 16:09 |
| blast007 | plus things like conan and vcpkg can integrate with CMake | 16:10 |
| Juest | premake problem is that its not as integrated as cmake | 16:11 |
| Juest | it also adds noise with its lua scripts | 16:11 |
| macsforme | plus premake (being Lua) is cleaner and easier to use (and understand) than Cmake and especially the GNU make system (which is a mixture of several kinds of syntax IIRC) | 16:12 |
| macsforme | Juest: hardly "noise"... if you look at the premake build files you will see that they are well-ordered, flexible, and easy to follow | 16:13 |
| macsforme | in any case, I won't hold the general proposal hostage to premake, if that's a sticking point right now | 16:14 |
| macsforme | I'm also willing to maintain the premake build files separately without eliminating the other build systems, so we can evaluate it (or any alternatives) further | 16:16 |
| Juest | https://i.imgur.com/80PvxEj.png the radar issue | 16:31 |
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| blast007 | yeah, that looks familiar | 17:10 |
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| bzfs-alchemy | Reading from logs. Related to 2.6 possibilities and future development. | 17:22 |
| bzfs-alchemy | What about simply backporting team switching and forced spawning to the API? | 17:24 |
| bzfs-alchemy | And getting IPv6 networking backported to. And this would be the next major release. | 17:24 |
| bzfs-alchemy | And maybe the possibility of getting bz function to play a sound working too. | 17:25 |
| blast007 | you mean adding team switching to 2.4? | 17:25 |
| bzfs-alchemy | Yes, but as a proper feature. | 17:26 |
| blast007 | it can't be added as a proper feature to 2.4 | 17:26 |
| blast007 | it would, at best, be a hackish protocol abuse | 17:27 |
| bzfs-alchemy | How did the backport for 3.0 features to 2.0.x to make 2.4.x work? | 17:27 |
| bzfs-alchemy | or at least that is what I thought happened | 17:28 |
| blast007 | we didn't technically backport 2.99 features to 2.0. We branch 2.4 off 2.0 and then backported 2.99 features to 2.4 | 17:29 |
| blast007 | so I thought you were talking about adding team switching to 2.4, not to a new incompatible branch | 17:29 |
| bzfs-alchemy | Oh, okay, mb. I'm thinking the same could be done in this case. (The branching). | 17:31 |
| blast007 | yeah, that's what macsforme was suggesting we do. Create a branch off the latest 2.4 and backport features from 2.5 into that branch | 17:31 |
| bzfs-alchemy | If this happens, I'd suggest team switching and forced spawning be as priority, with IPv6 as main feature. | 17:33 |
| bzfs-alchemy | IMO, this would allow a good amount of new game modes to be used rather easily. | 17:34 |
| bzfs-alchemy | Although I can't be sure of how effective it would be at retaining player activity. (Since new modes usually are popular for a time) | 17:35 |
| bzfs-alchemy | In short: New game modes are popular -> more new modes -> activity remains more stable | 17:37 |
| bzfs-alchemy | Before I forget...maybe for 2.4 or next major release, but spawning team flags without the need for players on that team. | 17:38 |
| bzfs-alchemy | I got partway with an API bypass, but it had some limitations to it... | 17:39 |
| Juest | its done to avoid winning against a non-existent team | 17:39 |
| bzfs-alchemy | The team exists and it works fine. | 17:39 |
| Juest | well, i mean its unfair to capture a no-players team | 17:40 |
| bzfs-alchemy | Just do /flag give <player> <team flag> and you can cap | 17:40 |
| Juest | ah okay | 17:40 |
| bzfs-alchemy | Possibly, but you can have a lot of new game modes. | 17:41 |
| blast007 | what game mode(s) are you suggesting? | 17:41 |
| bzfs-alchemy | Zombie, HumanVsZombies, Pac-Man, modified Last Tank Standing (for team switching and forced spawning) | 17:42 |
| bzfs-alchemy | For team flag spawning, HTF, racing and maze type of modes/maps | 17:43 |
| blast007 | HumanVsZombies - is that like rabbit chase, but the rabbit makes hunters rabbits when they kill them? | 17:43 |
| blast007 | (so, then multiple rabbits/zombies until everyone is a rabbit/zombie?) | 17:44 |
| bzfs-alchemy | Yes and visa versa in mrapple's implementation | 17:44 |
| Juest | viceversa* | 17:44 |
| bzfs-alchemy | There's two versions, the Zombie mode where rabbits infect non-rabbits until only a single hunter remains | 17:44 |
| Juest | racing should be easily doable with speed modifiers and stuff | 17:44 |
| Juest | until no hunters remain* | 17:45 |
| bzfs-alchemy | And humansVsZombies which has players switch teams, if the opposite team kills them, cycle continues till only 1 team remains | 17:45 |
| bzfs-alchemy | And a new round starts | 17:45 |
| Juest | a last man standing gamemode would be interesting in bzf | 17:46 |
| Juest | disabling respawn | 17:46 |
| bzfs-alchemy | Last tank standing already exists in api bypass version | 17:46 |
| Juest | lol | 17:46 |
| blast007 | you bump them to observer | 17:46 |
| Juest | okay that's less bad than making them stuck dead | 17:47 |
| Juest | but new players joining would be forced to observer unless a new round starts | 17:47 |
| bzfs-alchemy | That's how it currently works | 17:49 |
| bzfs-alchemy | Oh.... And before I forget...a lot of modes are actually similar to one another, but the variation of the implementation means it is playable or it isn't. | 17:51 |
| bzfs-alchemy | I'd like to try HTF with rogues and a team flag, but simply switch the rogue to a team for capping. | 17:52 |
| bzfs-alchemy | And the rogues who are capped are merely reset to their base. And partly use the dynamic of CaptureTheBase for playability. | 17:54 |
| blast007 | we should use web browser version number schemes and then jump straight to BZFlag 118.0.0 to catch up | 17:54 |
| bzfs-alchemy | Lol :D | 17:54 |
| bzfs-alchemy | "Oh noes, this map won't render on bz 103.0.0 Windoze edition, you need to update your client" | 17:56 |
| blast007 | "We only support the 115 LTS version and the latest 118 stable" | 17:56 |
| bzfs-alchemy | Lol | 17:56 |
| bzfs-alchemy | "This map looks best in macOS" | 17:57 |
| blast007 | "Best viewed on Netscape Navigator 4" | 17:57 |
| blast007 | wonder how many people here don't even know what Netscape Navigator was :P | 17:58 |
| bzfs-alchemy | First comes the Navigator, then the Explorer and finally the Konqueror. ;) | 17:59 |
| bzfs-alchemy | It's a reference :) | 18:00 |
| blast007 | I have a boxed copy of Netscape Navigator down the hall (at work) | 18:01 |
| bzfs-alchemy | :O | 18:01 |
| blast007 | think there's also a sealed copy of Visual C++ 5.0 | 18:01 |
| bzfs-alchemy | Bill Gates book had a copy of Internet Explorer, IIRC. | 18:02 |
| bzfs-alchemy | In the CD included in the book. | 18:03 |
| bzfs-alchemy | I'm not sure if I still have it anymore. :o | 18:03 |
| blast007 | I wonder if my 1000 free hours of AOL are still good | 18:04 |
| bzfs-alchemy | Lol | 18:04 |
| tupone | during the flare drawing of BoltSceneNode there is an error, uses a 2 float array with glVertex3fv. | 18:12 |
| tupone | I think glVertex3fv(core[0]) should be glVertex3f(0, 0, 0) | 18:13 |
| tupone | what do you think? | 18:13 |
| blast007 | I think I don't know enough OpenGL :) | 18:21 |
| macsforme | what is the file/line? it does sound like a buffer overrun | 18:24 |
| tupone | 645 | 18:25 |
| tupone | but there are other segment on that array, only they belong to other 2 d points | 18:25 |
| tupone | the file is BoltSceneNode | 18:26 |
| tupone | so it does not crash but is doing some other thing | 18:26 |
| blast007 | ah, yeah, that does look wrong | 18:27 |
| tupone | maybe just change to glVertex2fv ? | 18:28 |
| blast007 | I don't know enough about the intent of the code there | 18:28 |
| tupone | drawing flares | 18:28 |
| blast007 | I mean with the GL code itself | 18:28 |
| tupone | glVertex2fv will use 0 as z coordinate | 18:29 |
| moriah | ROFL: [12:54:18 pm] <blast007> we should use web browser version number schemes and then jump straight to BZFlag 118.0.0 to catch up | 18:30 |
| blast007 | moriah: :) | 18:30 |
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| BZNotify | 2.4 @ bzflag: atupone pushed 1 commit (https://github.com/BZFlag-Dev/bzflag/compare/6549d6f1ecbd...d7756e17207c): | 19:25 |
| BZNotify | 2.4 @ bzflag: atupone d7756e: flares are starting from center - fix buff ovfl (https://github.com/BZFlag-Dev/bzflag/commit/d7756e17207c0d90fec023608176407dc10debda) | 19:25 |
| Agatha | I'm not even sure what the code was trying to do in the first place, since it's an extra vertex that seems to be unrelated to the other three. It was indeed doing a buffer overflow (but not crashing because it was overrunning into the next element of `core`; wouldn't be picked up by debugger fences, necessarily, because dereference happens in driver). Might be worth running the whole codebase through valgrind :V | 22:18 |
| Agatha | Not sure how the other three vertices' positions are supposed to work but, assuming the comment means anything, note you can choose a random direction actually correctly by normalizing three gaussian-distributed samples, or by certain square root transforms (GIYF "sphere point picking"). | 22:18 |
| blast007 | I've run the whole codebase through valgrind before and there's a lot of noise :) | 22:26 |
| blast007 | though that was how a good number of 2.4.4 fixes came to be | 22:26 |
| Juest | nice | 22:51 |
| Juest | maybe something new would come up now, blast007, as in trying to run it through valgrind again | 22:51 |
| Juest | how about 2.5? | 22:51 |
| Agatha | blast007: while valgrind does produce false-positives sometimes, usually its output is a bug and if it's not it's still sketchy | 23:00 |
| Agatha | Can also make an ignores file for confirmed noise so you can still pick out new regressions, too. | 23:00 |
| blast007 | I probably worded that wrong. I meant it does flag a lot of stuff. | 23:31 |
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