IRC logs of Libera.Chat #BZFlag for Thursday, 2026-09-17

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TimRikerwater death appears to be client side in bzflag, so there are other options. :) it's server side in bzo. all deaths other than self-destruct are server side.03:47
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TimRikervoice chat in bzo is sorta working. Needs more testing.03:49
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TimRikerit would be nice if bzflag sent object names in the worlds. the hover names in bzo have been very useful for debugging. bzfs only names teleporters from what I see.03:53
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BZNotifybzo: Aeonovyli commented on issue #59 "Tank Models" by timriker (https://github.com/timriker/bzo/issues/59#issuecomment-5708973935): Okay, I can try the geometry again. I don't really know where you s...05:03
BZNotifybzo: Aeonovyli commented on issue #59 "Tank Models" by timriker (https://github.com/timriker/bzo/issues/59#issuecomment-5708973935): Okay, I can try the geometry again. I don't really know where you s...05:06
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BZNotifybzo: Aeonovyli commented on issue #59 "Tank Models" by timriker (https://github.com/timriker/bzo/issues/59#issuecomment-5708973935): Okay, I can try the geometry again. I don't really know where you s...05:26
BZNotifybzo: Aeonovyli commented on issue #59 "Tank Models" by timriker (https://github.com/timriker/bzo/issues/59#issuecomment-5708973935): Okay, I can try the geometry again. I don't really know where you s...05:50
BZNotifybzo: Aeonovyli commented on issue #59 "Tank Models" by timriker (https://github.com/timriker/bzo/issues/59#issuecomment-5708973935): Okay, I can try the geometry again. I don't really know where you s...05:51
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BZNotifybzo: Aeonovyli opened pull request #78 "Add Vortexal map by Cosmix" (https://github.com/timriker/bzo/pull/78)06:51
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BZNotifymain @ bzo: timriker pushed 2 commits (https://github.com/timriker/bzo/compare/f160258b613f...035c7291c7b9):07:32
BZNotifymain @ bzo: timriker 3fc786: Add BZFlag's weather map feature (https://github.com/timriker/bzo/commit/3fc786d7270a92b3f95052f4850b51fcc1095260)07:32
BZNotifymain @ bzo: timriker 035c72: Release v1.2.28 - add BZFlag's weather map feature, and maps/weather.bzw (https://github.com/timriker/bzo/commit/035c7291c7b99df10a31d8e5ad1e717763bdddbf)07:32
BZNotifybzo: timriker tagged main * 035c72 (Release v1.2.28 - add BZFlag's weather map feature, and maps/weather.bzw) as v1.2.28 (https://github.com/timriker/bzo/compare/v1.2.28)07:32
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BZNotifybzo: Aeonovyli opened issue #79 "Nametag above tanks changing width" (https://github.com/timriker/bzo/issues/79)08:32
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JuestTimRiker: i saw the help thing yeah, im saying that trying to open the operator panel asks for a name to input to succeed13:58
JuestTimRiker: also maybe disable the player name change when logged in if its enforced by the central login anyway13:59
Juestblast007: yes it uses c-ares, same version, for dns resolution, thing is that somehow due to the network adapters and maybe tailscale any connection to the server is identified as invalid aka 0.0.0.0 unless its ipv614:01
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Juestblast007: the cmake repo is ready for local use at least? any more work pending?15:26
blast007No major changes planned for local use.15:30
blast007The only thing might be using a specific version of the C++ build tools so that we can still target the same Windows versions15:31
TimRikerJuest, I think that's done now. central login should go right back to the game with the new player name. the op panel should be inactive for non-admin, and active for admin.15:31
JuestTimRiker: cool, thanks for resolving that discrepancy 15:32
Juestspeaking of which15:33
Juestpossible to have central auth off and have operator panel active?15:34
Juestor like whitelist or whatever15:34
blast007Juest: When are you thinking that would be useful? During development?15:35
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Juestblast007: yes, development or private to very trusted friends over vpn15:48
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Juestblast007: any options on having either intel or universal 2 or aarch64? its preferable for size15:55
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blast007Juest: for the -auto deps? it should be Universal 2 with arm64 and x86_6416:09
blast007or do you mean allowing it to just be one or the other?16:09
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Juestblast007: i mean some flexibility on those cmake repos, yes, for macos prior universal 2 and macos 27 which drops intel16:20
Juestand for apple silicon which is here to stay and to save on size16:20
Juestlikewise, you're already giving options in windows for 32 bits and 64 bits and using vswhere to allow compilation with newer vs, though, it does require v141 compiler to be installed, correct?16:22
TimRikerI don't have a local admin setup. There IS support for admin when hit from localhost. development relies on this to get /mv access and other admin commands.16:23
Juestah gotcha, well could be useful when central login is unavailable or is chosen to not be used16:23
TimRikeragreed. Perhaps I'll convert the admin to an address block whitelist with only ::1/128 and 127.0.0.0/8 in the same list. how does that sound?16:24
TimRikernote: with a ssl/tls proxy, this mean trusting x-forwarded-for. or people will be able to insert their own headers and get admin.16:25
Juesthmm interesting, yeah sure that's certainly something, but /8 not /24?16:26
Juestoh well, so that opens a security hole due to the nature of ip listing?16:26
TimRiker127.x.x.x is all "localhost" so, /8 not /2416:26
Juestah sorry yes, i forgot about masks16:26
Juestso this makes it spoofable 16:27
Juestwell its what it is16:27
Juestit is an acceptable compromise i hope?16:27
TimRikeryes, on a server where a local cubby is running in docker, and the server is in docker too, people might connect cubby to localhost, and then everyone gets admin, which would be bad.16:27
TimRikerwith a correct setup, it won't be spoofable. but it would be easy to have it incorrect.16:28
TimRikerI think about it. There might be some tests I can run on startup hitting the local and public ips confirming that the setup is ok.16:28
TimRikerthen warn and disable on incorrect setup.16:29
Juest:D16:30
Juestyeah, that'll be a good thing to do to keep it secure16:30
Juestits definitely possible to detect if you're in docker from nodejs, yeah?16:30
Juestbut also you cant proof against all the combinations16:31
TimRikeragreed. adding a ticket so I don't forget.16:31
Juest:D16:32
Juesti probably should make the ticket actually16:32
Juestgood call16:32
Juestbut if you do on my behalf, thanks because i struggle at expressing properly in a promptly manner16:32
Juestdue to processing16:32
BZNotifybzo: timriker opened issue #80 "Admin Whitelist" (https://github.com/timriker/bzo/issues/80)16:36
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blast007Juest: is the size of BZFlag much of a concern? Are we smaller than Discord?17:24
blast007regarding 127.x.x.x, what do you mean by spoofing? Every computer maps the entire 127.x.x.x to itself. 17:26
Juestblast007: its possible to fake what ip a connection comes from in some cases17:27
Juestthe architecture selection is a nice to have for certain setups and also prepares for future, also giving choice to users to either do x86_64 or aarch64 only besides universal 217:29
TimRikerbzo runs http. so a proxy adds the tls. If the proxy connects over localhost, then all players will be using localhost. If the proxy correctly inserts x-forwarded-for, then we can handle that. if it allows the user to submit their own x-forwarded-for then it can be spoofed.17:29
Juestyeah there you go17:29
JuestTimRiker: well, bzo could run https if desired, not every setup can do a reverse proxy17:29
TimRikertrue. and eventually node express or other service will support http3. it might make sense then to run the local as https and not require a proxy. The current works, but improvements could be made. Primary driver would be reduced latency by avoiding the proxy. However, current allows multiple server to have the same IP and do virtual hosting without needing new ports, so there's a trade off.17:31
TimRikerie: bz.rikers.org and jellyfin.rikers.org, etc. are on the same public IP.17:32
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blast007Juest: in extremely rare cases, and not for TCP, and almost certainly not for 127.x.x.x.18:19
blast007Juest: and even if it was, how would 127.5.10.20 be less safe than 127.0.0.1?18:20
TimRikerfor bzo, insert X-Forwarded-For:127.1.2.3 when you call an incorrectly configured site.18:21
TimRikeror X-Forwarded-For:127.0.0.1 or ::1 etc.18:21
TimRikerbzo needs to be able to trust the proxy headers. if the proxy does the wrong thing, whitelisting won't work correctly. that's all. fix the proxy, and validate it in bzo before trusting it.18:23
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Sythosin bzflag web attempt i've made during landing page opening a random token was generated, 2 copies, one sent to bun and one to client, bun/node proxy accept only from pre-approved token connection (btw, give a try to bun, run 4x faster on js, need to translation to TS running it natively and use 20% less ram than node)19:04
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BZNotifybzo: timriker opened issue #81 "Ground Texture" (https://github.com/timriker/bzo/issues/81)19:15
BZNotifybzo: timriker labeled issue #81 as enhancement 19:15
TimRikerSythos, not sure I'm following, but in principle, yes the web interface can force a login, getting it's own token, and then force another web login to get a token to pass on to the game server being proxied. Is that what you're doing?19:25
TimRikerSythos, I never got an answer to how far you got. what does it look like? is it running anywhere? what works? what does not? you should be able to proxy without login to servers that don't require login. Feel free to use bz4.rikers.org (bz.rikers.org support ipv6 and ipv4 where bz4 is only the ipv4 so bzfs can get registered)19:27
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SythosTimRiker: sorry i've though to get answer days ago, probably i've just though and not danced the ifingers on keyboard :D the client was working using a bzflag emulator done with ts, just testing features, never connected to real server due missing auth/oauth feature, i'll try bz4 asap (not today, i've overlapping issues on other peojects)19:35
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tuponeblast007: I have made some effort to minimize the commit to introduce glm instead of vector and vector_old. And a few other to use GPU VBO. Is it possible to add it on the 2.4 ? will require openGL1.520:46
TimRikerSythos, back to the same unanswered question. What did it do?20:47
TimRikeryou had a complete bzflag emulator written in typescript? is that what you're saying?20:48
Sythos<TimRiker> Sythos, back to the same unanswered question. What did it do? << can run if you strip auth/login from bzflag, it render the data feed from server and may move the tank, but i'm not on it since almost a month, just a little bump on some ci dep version, i should get some time to get back what i've done, by heart was working but no auth available, give me some time o recover20:53
Sythoswhat i've still (and also what i can recover from the pi4 i've used to develop it, got a lil incident during a storm but SD should be still readable and on it should be the local server and tools i've used)20:53
Sythoswell, a quick glance on commits there is already identity from bzf server and handshake, but cannot remember by hearth20:55
Sythosi'm old, you need some patience20:55
SythosO:)20:55
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TimRikerin theory, bzo could function as a full proxy. Most messages are similar. bzo is json, bzflag is binary. world coordinates are different, but those can be converted. bzo determines kills on the server side, so the client would need to sent gratuitous death requests for things like water that we don't send at the moment. but those could be worked around too.21:13
blast007tupone: probably. I'll test getting glm added to my bzflag-dependencies-cmake build and test it out a bit.21:14
TimRikerthe network latency remains though. running a proxy gets the poor performance of both transports combined, so it's the worst choice from a playability perspective.21:14
BZNotifybzo: timriker labeled issue #80 "Admin Whitelist" as enhancement (https://github.com/timriker/bzo/issues/80)21:15
BZNotifybzo: timriker labeled issue #79 "Nametag above tanks changing width" by Aeonovyli as bug (https://github.com/timriker/bzo/issues/79)21:15
blast007I don't see the point of a protocol compatible web-client.21:16
BZNotifybzo: timriker labeled issue #77 "Unify OO inside prims and meshes" as enhancement (https://github.com/timriker/bzo/issues/77)21:16
JuestTimRiker: is bzo netcode like bz or better?21:20
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BZNotifybzflag-dependencies: blast007 tagged 2.4 * 34f530 (Update SDL2 from 2.32.0 to 2.32.2) as v2.4.30 (https://github.com/BZFlag-Dev/bzflag-dependencies/compare/v2.4.30)21:24
BZNotifybzo: timriker opened issue #82 "Full BZFlag/bzfs proxy" (https://github.com/timriker/bzo/issues/82)21:27
Juestwhat's the point of going to bzflag21:27
Juesttreat it separately21:27
TimRikerblast007, the only useful thing I can see is for observing a match. on a phone, or browser, etc. ot won't be playable.21:28
Juestah sure, good luck with the netcode and the latency21:28
Juestunusable21:28
Juestunwatchable*21:28
TimRikerjust just the worst of both worlds, but the combined worst of both. truly an awful experience from a playabilty perspective.21:29
TimRikerhowever, more accessible than bzadmin, so for admin tasks it might be useful. I want someplace to point people that ask. "THIS is why I'm not focused on being a proxy"21:30
TimRikerit would suck. it would always suck.21:31
Juestfair enough21:31
Juestbetter than nothing i guess21:31
BZNotifybzo: timriker labeled issue #82 "Full BZFlag/bzfs proxy" as enhancement (https://github.com/timriker/bzo/issues/82)21:31
Juesthave the bzo server do the whole dealing with the bzflag server though21:31
Juestthen transport something lighter to the device21:31
Juestlike fully21:32
TimRikeryes, that would be the design. the lousy design. no changes to bzfs, bzo would need to look like a stock client to bzfs.21:32
Juest:D 21:32
Juestso implement bzadmin basically?21:33
Juestnjs port of that i guess21:33
Juestmaybe take some bits from bzflag to fill the remaining client blanks but the rest should be native in bzo21:33
TimRikerno, it would be a full 3d view. observers and operators might be happy. people will expect to play it that way, and that would be awful.21:34
Juestyeah no21:34
Juestjust spectating21:34
TimRikeragreed21:34
Juestno playing21:34
Juestsimply a mobile bzadmin with game view21:34
Juestjust deny any future requests of that with such explanation simple21:34
TimRikermobile, vr headset, desktop, would all work, and all suck.21:35
Juesthopefully some day the much needed netcode overhaul comes to bz21:35
TimRikerhttp3 or similar in bzo perhaps too. there might be a day where there's a working plan. today is not that day.21:36
blast007almost better off just streaming the game21:41
TimRikeragreed! streaming it would give a better view, and perhaps another place to chat/voicechat about the game too.21:42
blast007maybe if the AI bubble crashes there will be a bunch of "cheap" GPU servers for sale :P21:42
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TimRikerheh. that would be nice! orin is running on a formerly $250 nvidia jetson orin nano super. now, about $450. https://orin-bzo.rikers.org21:43
TimRikerthe client runs there too at 60fps now that I did a bunch of cleanup on the rendering.21:44
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TimRikerthat's in Firefox, as there's no Chrome build I am aware of for arm6421:55
tuponeblast007: I can give a branch/tag if you want to test mine21:57
JuestTimRiker: there is chrome for arm64/aarch6421:57
Juestand also chromium21:58
Juestq2 2026 arm64 chrome came to linux21:58
TimRikerah! I see that. installing. I'll test that as well.21:58
Juestalso TimRiker, there's thorium, optimized and customized version21:59
tuponeblast007: on my fork branch is vbo21:59
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tuponeI don't see a lot of gain with VBO, but I don't have a GPU. And VBO are now where before there were glDrawxxx client side (Meshes and Flags)22:02
TimRikernice. Not sure it's faster, but I'm getting about 140fps on the Orin if I ignore vsync.22:41
TimRikerhmm. not sure that's real. more testing...22:42
TimRikerworking on hix. can bases be part of a group? or do they have to be placed individually? how to we link up teleporters that are inside a group?23:03
blast007I think you *can* put teleporters inside of groups, but not links. So you probably have to use non-named teleporters in that case and use teleporter indexes.23:04

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