| macsforme | premake was creating roughly equivalent Visual Studio and GNU make project files when it was first implemented... probably needs updating to match other changes since then | 01:32 |
|---|---|---|
| macsforme | blast007: do you want to tentatively plan a 2.4 release for something like 6 to 8 weeks out? | 01:39 |
| macsforme | I was planning to (reluctantly) give Apple more money to renew my developer account and look into signing/notarization again... might just take some time, and we might want to do some test builds or an RC release to test that mechanism before the final build | 01:40 |
| macsforme | beyond that, if we're not getting IPv6 into 2.4, then it seemed like we were close... maybe the docker stuff? | 01:42 |
| blast007 | sure, that sounds reasonable | 01:46 |
| blast007 | I will (finally) work on getting a code signing certificate for the Windows builds as well. | 01:47 |
| blast007 | IPv6 still needs some more work with the web services, since we can't just turn on IPv6 for my.bzflag.org as that would break weblogin. | 01:48 |
| blast007 | that, and... ban commands would be a pain for typing an IPv6 address :) | 01:48 |
| blast007 | would there be an advantage to doing the Apple developer stuff through a company account instead of an individual? | 01:51 |
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| OkinaMatara | The real shortcut could easily be the following, rolling out IPv6 support which requires registration to work. | 03:19 |
| Juest | hi | 03:19 |
| OkinaMatara | Hi Juest! | 03:19 |
| Juest | no OkinaMatara, rolling ipv6 is too big of a breaking change | 03:19 |
| Juest | it breaks all existing bzflag clients | 03:19 |
| OkinaMatara | Juest: Yes, I know it would break all 2.4.x clients. | 03:20 |
| Juest | so bye old xp users | 03:20 |
| OkinaMatara | they can switch to ReactOS | 03:20 |
| bz-next | I don't even have ipv6 | 03:21 |
| bz-next | when will the world accept ipv6 is dead and just embrace NAT forever | 03:22 |
| OkinaMatara | IPv6 was a horrible idea from the onset, whoever came up with it should have been shipped to a deserted island for the sake of public benefit. | 03:22 |
| OkinaMatara | well, in short, I'm not really sure what exactly prevents working IPv6 support for the next major release | 03:23 |
| OkinaMatara | If it's related to complexities with the ban process, having IPv6 only work with global auth would be one solution. (You can't use IPv6 connection as unverified, which prevents abuse.) | 03:25 |
| OkinaMatara | and that would be while all needed time frame to build the logistics for IPv6 management/bans is underway | 03:26 |
| Juest | wrong | 03:26 |
| OkinaMatara | IPv4 would still be supported/default during this. | 03:26 |
| Juest | nat is a cancer idea | 03:26 |
| OkinaMatara | Port forwarding is the issue, makes it hard to run/manage stuff. | 03:27 |
| OkinaMatara | Easiest solution for IPv4 would have just been adding a few more digits, something sensible. | 03:29 |
| OkinaMatara | but nope, IPv6 and alphabet soup of networking | 03:29 |
| Agatha | IPv6 *is* basically just IPv4 with more digits, tho | 03:31 |
| OkinaMatara | Except in a form which causes way more issues than it is worth. (Security, logistics..etc) | 03:32 |
| OkinaMatara | It reminds me of where I read of an IPv6 block by IP range of some sorts, but simply changing format meant connections were allowed | 03:33 |
| OkinaMatara | This issue wasn't present on IPv4, it is IPv6 specific. | 03:33 |
| bz-next | maybe in 20 years ipv6 will be mandatory | 03:37 |
| OkinaMatara | It's probably mankinds biggest mistake. | 03:37 |
| bz-next | wikipedia says china will phase out ipv4 by 2030 | 03:40 |
| OkinaMatara | only some years away | 03:41 |
| Juest | ... | 03:42 |
| macsforme | not sure what your complaint is with IPv6, OkinaMatara, unless it's with the hexadecimal numbering system... although there have clearly been adoption/implementation challenges | 03:50 |
| OkinaMatara | macsforme, it's related to the side effects/purposes of hexadecimal being used | 03:54 |
| OkinaMatara | similarly, it is a very self-contradictory idea to some extent, at least in the abstract | 03:54 |
| macsforme | blast007: an organization-based Apple account/keys sound worth looking into... I don't necessarily assume there would be cost savings, but it's worth investigating for the sake of potentially sharing access | 03:54 |
| macsforme | IPv6 is "probably mankinds biggest mistake"... got it | 04:06 |
| OkinaMatara | I could write a whole list, but just one of many: It is simpler/more secure to use decimal, storage/network improvements make it sensible to do so. Hexadecimal == more effient network wise, but at the tradeoff of using additional computing power + added uncertainty, which is less secure. | 04:10 |
| OkinaMatara | Which doesn't make sense of using those minor "space/network" gains instead of more security/less uncertainty. (Especially when networking and storage has increased drastically.) | 04:12 |
| OkinaMatara | I can't say if this is done on purpose, but it certainly is a side effect of the logic used in IPv6. | 04:13 |
| OkinaMatara | More components == more likely for things to go wrong. (Basic engineering law.) | 04:14 |
| OkinaMatara | bzfs.cxx has 4 duplicates of logic with "MsgTimeUpdate" which can be served with a utility function. | 04:18 |
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| OkinaMatara | saves about 2 lines of code total, but the cleanup simplifies understanding of logic by a large extent | 04:22 |
| macsforme | you seem to believe that IPv4 and IPv6 addresses are stored and transmitted as character strings... I believe this is generally not the case | 04:25 |
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| macsforme | same thing regarding there being any concept of numbering systems (decimal, hexadecimal) in computer memory, where data is simply stored in units of bytes | 04:27 |
| Juest | OkinaMatara: ips characters is a human thing, computers do ip addresses in binary, hexadecimal representations is also a human thing | 04:29 |
| OkinaMatara | I can't find the article, but the gist of it was it was trivial to bypass a blacklist by how many "variations" an IP could be expressed in IPv6 notion | 04:30 |
| macsforme | so an IPv4 address would simply be 4 bytes, while an IPv6 address would be 16 bytes (if my math is right) | 04:30 |
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| OkinaMatara | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPv6 has the following statement: The full representation may be shortened; for example, 2001:0db8:0000:0000:0000:8a2e:0370:7334 becomes 2001:db8::8a2e:370:7334. | 04:32 |
| OkinaMatara | Going from 5-6 year memory, the details were roughly that on a blacklist was either the full IPv6 address, but connections still could be made to it by using the shorted notion. | 04:34 |
| macsforme | that sounds like an issue of implementation, and not an underlying flaw of IPv6 itself | 04:35 |
| OkinaMatara | Very true, it was specific instance of implementation, but at the same time, it begs a larger question of "why". | 04:36 |
| OkinaMatara | It's easier to be misused and it's easier for "mistakes" to occur. | 04:37 |
| OkinaMatara | And that's something I see as something which isn't an ideal, especially since it has been demonstrated that it is easier for corrupt/bad data to be fed into programs. | 04:39 |
| OkinaMatara | Maybe it's me just seeing something is possible with a lot of generalizations, which tends to be common. | 04:40 |
| OkinaMatara | Known: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typosquatting -> Probably it sees revival in IPv6 | 04:43 |
| OkinaMatara | This in the abstract sense and when taken to its logical extreme. | 04:43 |
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| Agatha | Calling IPv6 "mankind[']s greatest mistake" is definitely a, uh, take. | 05:07 |
| Agatha | For my part, I'll go on record as saying that it's *NAT* that is cursed, to the extent that a major field of study in network engineering is finding out ways around it (NAT punchthrough, etc.). Moreover, essentially every user-facing network setup issue revolves around a misconfigured NAT, something can't talk to something else through it. | 05:10 |
| Agatha | And why is NAT a thing? Because of IPv4! It started as a security thing, but now it's a *necessity* because there are way more devices than IPv4's 2^32 could possibly index, even if it did it sequentially, which it does not. | 05:10 |
| Agatha | Because of IPv4's limited address space, ISPs have been shilling NAT as a feature, instead of what it should be—an opt-in anonymity measure to avoid ISP fingerprinting. But now it's usually the ISP's router doing the translating! | 05:13 |
| Agatha | IDK much about IPv4 or IPv6, and I'm willing to believe that IPv6 isn't perfect. But, it was also dogfood prototyped through an entire major revision before it was approved by industry experts and codified into a standard. So, imperfect though all works of mankind inevitably are, I speculate it's at least still *pretty good*. | 05:15 |
| the_map | I think Microsoft Teams is a pretty solid competitor for the biggest mistake | 06:32 |
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| Lantizia | blast007, thanks - someone did go out of their way to play bzflag at the event (not sure who, we had a few people/laptops) as I noticed it open... and we had plenty of other games on there :) | 08:26 |
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| Juest | nice | 15:31 |
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