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| Zehra | Ironically enough, it's funny seeing players get hit like geno bait bots. | 00:49 |
|---|---|---|
| Zehra | (Except when they're your teammates.) :P | 00:50 |
| Zehra | It took around 4 years or so for most players to wise up, because otherwise I'd still be nailing them 24/7. :D | 00:51 |
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| Agatha | I mean, the way to speedrun 101 points on Apoc remains to camp the middle with geno, and then shoot the people who drop off the platforms. And they *will* inevitably drop, because no one expects you to hit the broad side of a barn on Apoc. | 02:48 |
| Agatha | I suppose there's also GM camping, which is a near-guaranteed 20+ kills every time until someone decides maybe they should target you :P | 02:48 |
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| Zehra | Useless works really well when you have noobs. :P | 02:49 |
| Zehra | Laser used to be really fun, until the reloads began to kick in. | 02:50 |
| Zehra | Actually, how come no one has written a speedrun guide to bz??? Like how to speedrun to 101 points on xyz maps. | 02:50 |
| Zehra | Urban Jungle edition (The pro said to the other players "It's USELESS to try to beat me here, since those points are MINE") :P | 02:52 |
| Zehra | But come to think of it, it's the underlying limitation of current flag mechanics, since at least according to design docs... | 02:53 |
| Zehra | The flags should provide an advantage, but it should have another hard or soft counter to it, the benefit should not be an instakill widespread weapon. (a.k.a. geno.) | 02:54 |
| Zehra | But since virtually all current flags just provide some basic tactical advantage, we pretty much exhausted the possibilities on what they can do. (Especially with 1 hit = kill, except for shield.) | 02:56 |
| Zehra | My current theories are on the belief of new mechanics, either of some sort of "activation" set, or to have them provide a more strategic skill. (Useless for the holder of the flag, but of some benefit or disadvantage for the team.) | 03:00 |
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| Agatha | Laser is still very strong on Apoc. The reloads are long, but you wouldn't miss with laser, now would you? I certainly don't. It's rare for them to come at me in groups of more than about three anyway, so four is plenty. | 03:25 |
| Agatha | The point about strategic flags is interesting. I already try to use the tactical flags strategically—e.g. using GM to impose an area of protection for my teamies to operate, seeking out CL and RR when we have an L, and so on, but a more direct relationship, especially one that is slightly detrimental to the holder, would be fascinating in theory. | 03:25 |
| Agatha | I'm thinking, maybe a flag that reduces your shot count from 4 -> 1, but *increases* all teamies' shot counts from 4 -> 5 within a radius. Or, an obesity flag that also makes GM / L / SW spawn more frequently on your base. | 03:25 |
| Agatha | I worry a bit that it might devolve into no one using them because of teamwork being near-dead on powerflag maps, or at least into self-sorting of players by personality, but I still think these ideas are worth exploring! | 03:25 |
| SpringTank | area denial. I've seen that used in other games. | 03:32 |
| Zehra | I suppose my joints are acting up every once in a while with the occasional miss with L every once in a while. | 03:33 |
| Zehra | With strategic flags, I've considered some form of spawn manipulations or slight manipulations via per-player vars to modify/create effects. | 03:34 |
| SpringTank | charge buffs | 03:35 |
| SpringTank | to charge your buff, you shoot players. every kill adds to the charge. | 03:35 |
| Zehra | The real problem is those effects, wouldn't be that effective if purely visual. (a.k.a. simply making the area/region foggy. Still rather useful for other ideas/modes or per-region fog..etc) | 03:35 |
| SpringTank | when you activate the charge, nearby teammates get a speed boost, or extra power flags if they don't already have one, etc. until the buff wears off. | 03:35 |
| SpringTank | players could be *marked* on the radar using SW up really high. | 03:36 |
| Zehra | Hmm, this gives me an interesting idea... powerup zones... similar to useless mines, but different. | 03:36 |
| SpringTank | buff stops as soon as you die, or for any player who travels out of range. | 03:37 |
| Zehra | You could drop a flag in an area, and within somewhat of a shockwave region, additional flag effects are granted for x seconds. | 03:37 |
| Zehra | a.k.a. player grabs "Cloaked Lasers" buff flag... drops it... area is highlighted to teammates... who have or pickup cloaking during the duration of the flag. | 03:38 |
| Zehra | "For 30 seconds. All of [team]'s players holding a Cloak flag will fire lasers within x region". (As long as "Cloaked Lasers" player remains in zone and alive.) | 03:40 |
| Zehra | Speed boosting + other buffs are interesting/useful, but with current player counts, it may be difficult to make it workable. | 03:40 |
| Zehra | Unless weak flags are given buffs... which makes a unique mechanic... not sure how popular this would be. | 03:41 |
| Zehra | I'll later release my GamblePoint mode. (When I get the map ready for it.) I'm very much interested in seeing how many players are willing to try/play somewhat easily understood games. | 03:44 |
| Zehra | If successful, some slightly more complex/interesting game mechanics can be tried. | 03:44 |
| Zehra | But unfortunately, it seems a major shortage of reading capability exists, as even server messages are ignored. :p | 03:45 |
| Juest | Agatha: the scenario you posed sounds very hard to achieve and maintain | 04:05 |
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| Agatha | Yes. My understanding is that a lot of experimentation in this space is limited by the current capabilities of the API. | 04:43 |
| Juest | gameplay wise that is | 04:46 |
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| Agatha | Ugh "This callsign is registered. You must use global authentication." what does this *mean*? I always run into this problem when trying to connect to a private local server . . . | 06:20 |
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| Agatha | I've never understood why my global authentication doesn't work on a private server, nor why it should *matter* for a private server. | 06:37 |
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| BZNotify | master @ bzflag.org: allejo pushed 1 commit (https://github.com/BZFlag-Dev/bzflag.org/compare/aca01eb748f5...1b86c4b6cc01): | 07:06 |
| BZNotify | master @ bzflag.org: allejo 1b86c4: Document the bz_getNearestFlagSafetyZone fxn (https://github.com/BZFlag-Dev/bzflag.org/commit/1b86c4b6cc0186a2a77b9e804964cd68df56fc6e) | 07:06 |
| allejo | hehe i forgot past me added that function but didn't document it | 07:07 |
| Agatha | Suggest removing the "/p:PlatformToolset=v141 /p:WindowsTargetPlatformVersion=10.0.17763.0" junk in bzflag-dependencies windows build. It will fail unless you have exactly that platform version. | 07:12 |
| Agatha | Also, the dependencies output into e.g. "dependencies/output-windows-debug-x86/", whereas the bzflag main build looks for "$(BZ_DEPS)\output-$(Configuration)-$(PlatformShortName)", resulting in e.g. "dependencies/output-debug-x86/" (note the missing "windows"). | 07:29 |
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| blast007 | Agatha: are you using the 'master' branch of bzflag-dependencies instead of the '2.4' branch when building the 2.4 branch of bzflag? | 09:21 |
| blast007 | use the matching branch | 09:22 |
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| blast007 | and the reason for the "/p:PlatformToolset=v141 /p:WindowsTargetPlatformVersion=10.0.17763.0" is that without that msbuild just errors out and you would have to manually open those project files in Visual C++ and retarget them. | 09:26 |
| blast007 | and that is still the current version of the Windows 10 SDK in Visual Studio 2017... | 09:50 |
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| Juest | Agatha: true and false, that sdk version is also installed when you do games workload on vs 2017 | 16:57 |
| Juest | blast007: visual studio can use newer sdks, just that you're using the default ones | 16:57 |
| Juest | how would you have working global authentication on private servers then? | 16:58 |
| blast007 | you can have unlisted servers that still talk to the list server | 17:11 |
| blast007 | or you can restrict them to only show up for members of specific groups | 17:11 |
| blast007 | -advertise NONE would let you have an unlisted server | 17:11 |
| blast007 | and sure, if you're going to deviate from the default install of Visual Studio 2017, you're going to have to edit stuff :) | 17:13 |
| Juest | nice, Optic_Delusion_ should be doing that for his map tests on apoc/planetmofo servers | 17:13 |
| blast007 | why? | 17:14 |
| Juest | he didnt want the server to be public but still hosted it publicly | 17:16 |
| Juest | nevermind | 17:16 |
| * Juest shrugs | 17:16 | |
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| Agatha | blast007: it seems I was indeed on the master branch of bzflag-dependencies. | 18:33 |
| Agatha | MSBuild *does* error out when I *do* have that line, because I didn't happen to have the extremely specific 10.0.17763.0 SDK installed. I *did* indeed have to open the solution and retarget all projects. The VS projects should instead be configured to use "10.0 (latest installed version)"; that way it will work regardless of what the developer has. | 18:33 |
| Agatha | The platform toolset part at least doesn't break anything in the (more likely) case you have that toolset installed. But again, it would be better to change the toolset in all projects to the default and leave it off the command line. That way it works in any VS version. | 18:33 |
| Juest | blast007: have you considered changing the default branch of bzflag-dependencies to 2.4? | 18:35 |
| Juest | bzflag default branch is 2.4, why dependencies is not? | 18:36 |
| Juest | it'll enable people who don't specify a branch to have the correct branch out of the box | 18:36 |
| blast007 | Agatha: no, I'm not editing the projects. Two of them are upstream. | 18:39 |
| blast007 | do you have an older version of the SDK, or are you using a newer version of Visual Studio? | 18:39 |
| blast007 | cuz on my 2017, 10.0.17763.0 is the Windows 10 SDK installed in a fully updated install | 18:40 |
| Agatha | Newer version of VS. VS 2022, it being 2023 already. | 18:42 |
| Agatha | Fair enough about not editing upstream projects. Maybe there's a way to get the more-portable defaults by adjusting the command line, then? E.g. I think if you pass "/p:WindowsTargetPlatformVersion=10.0" instead of specifying the full version, then it will work with whatever, though haven't tested. | 18:42 |
| blast007 | Locally somewhere I have a change to the build file that moved the two values to variables defined near the top of the file | 18:44 |
| Agatha | I mean, it's easy enough to change. It would just be better if one didn't have to because it worked straightaway. | 18:45 |
| Agatha | Regarding the private server, I *was* using "-advertise NONE". Actually, it seems like if you specify any of "-publictitle", "-publicaddr", or "-publickey" it will try to make it public anyway? I was finally able to get it to sortof work by specifying "-advertise NONE" and leaving off all of those other arguments, and also leaving off "-userdb". Apparently, "-userdb" loads my username ("EVERYONE VERIFIED LOCAL.ADMIN") and this causes a check with the global | 18:45 |
| Agatha | auth server which fails somehow. | 18:45 |
| blast007 | userdb is only needed if you want to locally assign users to groups instead of adding them to the groups via the forum | 18:46 |
| blast007 | Agatha: and I just tested the 10.0 thing, and no, that does not work | 18:59 |
| blast007 | I have tried to find a way to detect it, and I've not come across anything that works | 19:00 |
| tupone | I'm going to push changes on 2.4 about not inlining virtual functions. Anyone against it ? | 19:14 |
| blast007 | I'm not against it, but I also barely know what that means. ;) | 19:28 |
| tupone | you can inline functions writing for instance in header file. But virtual functions are called with pointers, cannot inline | 19:38 |
| tupone | unless compiler knows statically the type | 19:40 |
| Agatha | blast007: I was surprised by that, and tried it myself. It . . . *does* work :V what error are you specifically getting? | 19:46 |
| BZNotify | 2.4 @ bzflag: atupone pushed 1 commit (https://github.com/BZFlag-Dev/bzflag/compare/3b9de593ab8e...961caa81f017): | 19:46 |
| BZNotify | 2.4 @ bzflag: atupone 961caa: Removing inlining of virtual function (https://github.com/BZFlag-Dev/bzflag/commit/961caa81f017c0fb26ea733fcc39e7975c04551e) | 19:46 |
| Juest | Agatha: the 10.0 specification only works on 2022 compilers and later | 19:48 |
| Agatha | that would explain it | 19:51 |
| Juest | its an alias that points to the latest sdk installed | 19:57 |
| Juest | and requires compiler support | 19:57 |
| blast007 | I might upgrade our build to 2019 if there's a good reason | 20:00 |
| blast007 | moving to 2022 would remove Vista as a supported OS, so that could wait until 2.6 | 20:01 |
| blast007 | (and yes, I'm sure there's at least someone still using Vista... I even have some using 2.4.2 yet because they're on XP) | 20:01 |
| Agatha | Maybe one can make a "buildVC2022.bat" file that keys with "buildVC2017.bat" into a common implementation but sets appropriate variables? | 20:31 |
| blast007 | I don't think we even build 100% correctly on 2022 | 20:38 |
| Juest | you can build for xp on vs 2017 right? | 20:50 |
| Juest | also, upgrading to 2019 or 2022 has potential of breaking windows 7 | 20:50 |
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| Agatha | Where does bzflag parse bzw files? | 22:25 |
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