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| Agatha | If Apoc keeps logs, I've been absolutely saturating them with reports of people F12ing an instant before cap. It happened like 10 times tonight (maybe 3 in as many minutes, from a "billynops"), which is absurd. I feel like I'm shouting into the ether here; would be nice if these logs were acted upon, you know, eventually / ever. | 11:12 |
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| Agatha | Banning this scum would be good. Giving the whammo plugin actual teeth, adding a grace period to CTF bonus, and un-disabling poll bans would be better. Just some thoughts. | 11:12 |
| blast007 | logs aren't going to show if someone was near a geno or equivilent when they left | 11:14 |
| blast007 | so are you just going to start banning anyone who doesn't stick around long enough? | 11:15 |
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| Agatha | That's an issue too, but the issue here is different—about F12ing an instant before a cap, which is easy to prove simply from the timestamps. | 11:45 |
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| blast007 | why is it an issue if someone leaves just before a flag capture? | 13:14 |
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| moriah | It often results in negative points for the one caps. Perceived as done purposely | 13:59 |
| moriah | One who caps* | 13:59 |
| blast007 | so that's the problem that should be fixed | 14:00 |
| blast007 | not every problem needs to be fixed with bans | 14:00 |
| blast007 | remove the incentive | 14:01 |
| moriah | Blame the Whammo plugin | 14:01 |
| blast007 | I don't know what that is | 14:01 |
| moriah | supposedly detects f12 before a cap....bans the player for 5 hrs | 14:03 |
| moriah | I get pms & discord dms from players complaining of wrongful plugin bans | 14:04 |
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| moriah | whammo plugin is on apocalypse. Not sure if it's used elsewhere | 14:06 |
| blast007 | so it's the lazy way of working around the actual problem | 14:19 |
| moriah | It was one attempt to deal with f12 before caps. Several post Forum complaints: https://forums.bzflag.org/viewtopic.php?t=20374 | 14:26 |
| moriah | I routinely check reports…. | 14:30 |
| moriah | I see Agatha’s complaints, but without being actually present at that particular moment to witness the f12 - I’m not in habit of banning | 14:35 |
| moriah | It’s frustrating for players to lose points unfairly. | 14:36 |
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| macsforme | not hard to implement a grace period of a few seconds, especially before penalizing the affected player | 17:56 |
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| Agatha | Indeed, F12 before flag capture results in negative points if the teams become unbalanced (and less positive reward if they remain balanced). | 20:06 |
| Agatha | Improving the whammo plugin to detect + tempban F12 before cap (say, any player who leaves within 5 seconds of a cap, at least when this creates an unbalanced team, e.g. as in 2v2—imperfect, but would go a long way), and adding a grace period (or e.g. use the most-balanced team over the past 15 seconds for purposes of calculating the bonus/penalty), would indeed be easy but helpful measures to address the symptom of the problem. | 20:06 |
| Agatha | I do want to point out, though, it's emphatically not just about the points. I mean, that's important—more than any other not-outright-FFA server, Apoc is about point maximization foremost—but the issue here is not about the points per-se. | 20:06 |
| Agatha | F12ing before cap (or geno or death or dropping team flag before death or etc.) doesn't just deprive you of a few points; it's also petulant disrespect from human player to human player. BZFlag is simulated conflict, but this is sabotaging in-game victory by metagaming. It's flipping the chessboard and claiming you've never lost. It bespeaks a spiteful hatred in real life. It's the other human player attempting to make my personal experience less rewarding | 20:06 |
| Agatha | and fun, for no legitimate in-game purpose. | 20:06 |
| Agatha | That sort of personal attack hits very differently for some reason. The sheer unsporting, childlike effrontery just gets under my skin, far more than a few stupid internet points. That's really what my complaint is about. | 20:06 |
| blast007 | my point was to fix the bonus points plugin so that F12ing doesn't cause that problem in the first place | 20:11 |
| blast007 | remove the incentive to F12 | 20:11 |
| blast007 | I would think that would be eaiser than detecting malicious behavior with minimal/flawed data | 20:12 |
| blast007 | well, easier than *accurately* detection malicious behavior :) | 20:13 |
| Agatha | Well, whichever. I think some of the servers inspired by Apoc (in particular, Scarwall) have variant plugins that did that and more, so it's actually already implemented, even. I just don't want it to be missed that that's a symptom, not the problem per-se. It's not, and never was about, the points. | 20:31 |
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